ACN telephone services..pyramid scam or not???

[obotradingco]

Hello,
this new company ACN - "one world, one vision" has merged recently (8 months) here in Hawaii. They are a new aged telephone service provider.
Now my concern is that they have develope a program for people to be involve and make money. I have gone to one of their semminars and listen to their plans. I heard a bunch of mumbo jumbo, pay $499 to start,..until they brought up the "recruiting part". I mean something similar to the other pyramid scams that have came up in the past (Quikstar, AMway, ETC..). Bring 2 people in and make leverage income off their efforts, meaning they will need to bring in 2 people themselves.
Their presentation sounds profitable and looks like theres many potential. Just as pursuasive as the rest. I don't want to judge or compare, but this company is so siginficantly similar to the rest. I've known people that have gone into these and have never seen a dime for their recruiting. Now, I have other friends that are brain washed and has committed to this so called company, I am concerned.
Does anybody know of any reason why someone shouldn't be in this company? or am I mistaken, did my friends make a right choice and there is a high probabilty that they can and will succeed? If you can help me out with these questions, please fill me in with the details....before its too late.

ACN website>>> http://www.acninc.com/acn/us/about_us/acn_story/

Thankyou all so much,
obotradingco.

obotradingco@yahoo.com

[LemonCorp]

In my opinion such a company would never send 1000s of mails to people who didn't ask for that.
I have never heard of such a tactic but I would recommend to delete this mail and following mails who offer you money or ask for money.

You will see that in few weeks such mails go directly into your spam folder if you have one.

Just to mention: it is forbidden to make advertisment by mail to people who didn't ask for that. real big companies don't send advertising mail as long as you are not a customer!

[Big Al]

Hi and welcome , i have done a little bit of reserch as the company is now operating in Australia, and i wondered about the pyramid side of things, as it is illegal here , this is an article i came up with --http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/712090
The accc stands for the australian competition and consumer commission, who are resposible for ensuring compliance with the trade practise act.
It would seem that you are not the only one to consider that it is a pyramid system.
The way that one has to recruit others and receive income from their efforts seems like a pyramid system to me!
They state that they are a member of the direct selling association (D S A )
I would be inclined to check this out and it would be wise to check them out with the office of fair trading-- i believe yours is called the better business beaurou ?
All in all this does seem to be allied with a pyramid type of system and caution is advised before any commitment is made, thank you " Big Al "

[Daneel]

Yes, this is the MLM variety of a pyramid scheme. What you said about having to recruit new members to make money told me all I needed to know about it. They probably use various loopholes to avoid being a pyramid scheme in the legal sense, but at the core, it is nothing but a scam. Very few people make any money from it, and you have to scam hundreds of others in order to do that.

You can read a lot about this particular scheme by searching something like "ACN pyramid scam" in any search engine:
http://arbyte.us/blog_archive/2005/0...amid_Scam.html
http://users.tns.net/~mpat/scam/#minionmail
http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PS...ACNCanada.html
http://www.mikegrossman.com/blog/200...lease-comment/

ACN is a brilliant scam. From another blog, I agree with the description that it is an "evil money lust cult." But you would never know that upon first impression, because they are pretty much the slickest show on the planet. That may sound extreme, but I have barely survived the three years I spent trying to succeed with the company-- emotionally, financially, and spiritually.

The chances of succeeding with this company for anyone, from current CEO to college freshman, are slim to none. The odds are similar to the “House Always Wins.” After stumbling upon a paragraph in a book "Deadly Cults" by Robert L. Snow, about another MLM's use of Cult Mind Control Tactics, I began serious research.

What I found frightened me and made me realize the terrible truth that they actually employ every trick in the book to free you and your contacts from their wallets, without having to give too much in return to recruits. It was actually a huge relief to find it wasn't me, but the weighted system ACN had in place.

How is it that I could have sunk so much time and money into this, and heard so many promises of success, to be sitting here tens of thousands of dollars poorer? I have lost connections with my delicate family and friend relationships over ACN. Why? Because ACN is not about it's very high-tech products and services, it is really about putting together a list of the most valuable people in your life and just taking the $500 up-front fee from them. When they drop out, which they all will, ACN is richer and they are poorer. If I had to put a finer point on it, I would say this business is an affront to basic business practices and normal relationships. But they make this very hard to see.

There was a time when I was hailed as an up-and-coming entrepreneur in many news articles-- no more. I graduated Cum Laude from my University, I'm not a flunkey nor a drop-out. Anyone can fall prey to this.

So why wouldn't I be excited that Donald Trump joined the company as an endorser? Who wouldn't want to work at that level? Let me save the people thinking about working with this company their resources and sanity...Don't do it. Just don't step in the room. I can only hope that Mr. Trump doesn't fully understand the scenario. Succeeding in business IS hard enough, even when you find the right partners. ACN has made too many empty promises and now I know why. That's not the “Integrity” they always talk about, is it?

ACN is more like a cult than anything.

A Cult has these characteristics:

-Everything is set up to benefit the Leaders or Founders of the Cult.(These guys are documented as making massive fortunes from ACN.)

-Often cults acquire hundreds of millions of dollars in assets, acquire celebrity endorsements, get darling media coverage at one point, and network with politicians and lawmakers (Former State Attorney Generals like ACN has on its legal team)

-Often cults hide behind corporate laws or non-profit religious laws to essentially get away with massive fraud (until everyone 'drinks the Koolaid' and allegations are no longer deniable).

-Cults make you work long hours for very little in return. A VP once stated to me, "if you can't make another call from exhaustion and it's 11 pm, that's a good day in ACN." Whatever happened to "Balance."

-Cults use Mind Control techniques such as Repetition, Environment Control (You should see the light show at the International Conferences, Pink Floyd would be proud), Peer Pressure, Evenly paced Music, Indoctrination of Harmful Beliefs, and any other tactic that helps them with their means.

Okay, says it's not really a Cult (for the more measured view). Very few people can be convinced to use the products and services, and the ones that do face major hassles and headaches that they will complain about—TO YOU. Many end up hating ACN, and their connection to ACN is YOU. Often, the services end up costing more than standard services or just are not convincing enough. That's when they ask you to “Lean on the Relationship.” Imagine a slimy Eel chasing your Grandmother's checkbook and you will know how this feels.

Well what about the Video Phones? They are one of the few companies to employ these devices...but look out. Anyone ever read "1984?" Orwell's 'Telescreens,' anyone? Technology is just another way for them to try to control you and your friends. Normal people with normal lives are generally not as interested in this technology as they would have you believe. I did get a few customers, but they stopped answering my calls and they certainly didn't refer me any more customers. Though the technology is really interesting, it is another way for them to INVADE your life too.

If you want to have fun with $500 or spend money on plane tickets, buy yourself a ticket to Monte Carlo and put $500 on Black at the Roulette wheel. Your odds are better for winning and you'll probably have fun even if you lose (and a great story).

I've been to numerous conferences, been on countless conference calls, gotten dozens of people “in” and in my downline and made very little money. But don't get me wrong, ACN does work, if you don't mind scamming tons of people just like you while ignoring your conscience.

Hmm...A Pseudo-Cult masquerading as a legitimate phone company...Genius.

The hard thing is knowing how many people will sign the Rep Agreement before they even have a chance to read something like this, because of their high pressure, time-crunch motivated tactics.

[Randy Kearney]

Regarding ACN Telephone and Media Services. I have close friends who have been Independent Representatives for ACN for a couple of years now. They are making good money and offer services most of us use every day. In fact to help a good friend out I am a ACN customer for telephone, cellular, satellite TV and a lap top broadband card. The prices are the same or better than going directly to the company and I have someone I know to call if I have a question or concern. I am saving money and all of the services are great! I intend to keep them. When you go into a at&t or Sprint store for example let's say at the mall you most likely being served by a broker for the carrier and it is not a company owned store. ACN is a legitimate broker of these services and has a good 15 year track record. I have found their service and communications to be outstanding! Regarding the Independent Representatives, I know of people who have not made money with ACN but quite frankly they really did not want to work, did not understand the MLM concept and/or had poor leadership and training. It's not an easy business and my friends who have invested the time and have right attitude have succeeded well. Multi level marketing is not for everyone... I fully appreciate the theories regarding the Pyramid and/or cult type schemes and I am one of the cautious people too! However, I have only found ACN to be quite legitimate with a brilliant business concept.

[ingognito]

Don't waste your money ! Your friends will screw you ! they so think this is their salvation and that it is yours too. You will get lied to and when it's all said and done your are 500.00 poorer. They will tell you to borrow the money or anything that will meet their greedy need. It's bad all the way around.

DON"T DO IT !!!!!!!

[ingognito]

I just found out just how evil this ACN business is. I quit after 2 mos of seeing it was a scam and a disaster in the making. It's all about spending money. I told the person who signed me up a so called friend hmmmm on that one. I think I was on her B list. Anyway, I tried and could see my friends were smarter than I and didn't take the bait I did. I told this person my contacts were not interested and one of them she assisted in showing the presentation to and knew where he worked from our conversation. I told her after long searching he choose not to get involved. So, now it's 5 mos since I quit and she called my personal friend up at work and told him she thought I gave him a poor example of the business and she was calling to step in and handle what I didn't . He was so mad ! He told her off for first throwing one of his friends under a bus and then for calling him at all and especially at work. He told her if he had choosen the business he would of done it with me and not her. he told she was caustic,rude,over bearing and inconsiderate. He also told her obviously if you are going after other people's friend's and contacts you must be one desperate woman. This is what ACN does to people. They don't think about who this $ 499.00 + other fees does to family and friends. DON'T DO IT ! and watch out for those who try to sell you the moon.

[cmaticblazn]

I did plenty of research on ACN:

1. The $499 you pay upfront and other fee's monthly and annually you pay keeps you as a Independent Rep for ACN. And for those who know about being an Independent Rep for any company, there are many & plenty of fee's you have to pay. It works just like an Independent Rep for a Insurance Company. Or Real Estate Company. What happens? You pay about $1000 or more upfront for class fee's and/or licensing. And even so as a Real Estate Agent, you have to pay renewal fee's to maintain your license. Same concept wit ACN. For under $1000 to start up, you learn as you work, and your in business for yourself, but not by yourself because Reps within ACN will guide and train you. Think of it as a sense when someone wants to go in business for themselves. Whether it's owning a deli shop, dry cleaners, restaurant etc. they will put their life savings into having their own business. But in most cases these individuals pull out loans on a average of 60k, 100k, 200k depending on the type of business. So it's not a scam for a company such as ACN to require to pay a $499 fee and other fee's monthly and annually. Just as legit as any other business.

2. Not talking bad about anyone you didn't succeed or continue with ACN, but you have to have the motivation and drive as an Independent Rep. People ask "well can you guarantee success if I pay this $499 and join???". It's just like joining a gym, anyone can join and pay the upfront fee's and monthly fee's but the personal trainers cant guarantee everyone will loose weight. You have to have that drive and motivation to get in the gym and work hard at loosing the weight. ACN is not a get rich quick scheme business. It's not a fly by business either. ACN offers the opportunity to be successful and especially earn residual income (one of the types of incomes @ ACN) for the fruits of your labor. You have to put forth the effort and work hard just like any other job or business you may work for. And everyone has a different meaning of success to them. Not everyone has the same drive and motivation so of course ACN is not for everyone just like any other company.

3. Others are skeptical because of the pyramid scheme type operation. It's completely legit and legal. You just have to look at it in a sense of a Real Estate Agent starting his independently owned office. he wants to sell 100 homes for example every month but know he can't handle it on his own so what does he do??? He hires 5 agents under him who pay the fee's necessary for licensing, and have them sell 15-20 homes each to reach that goal. And the manager get's a cut/commission off of what they sell. Same concept ladies and gentlemen. You want to do so much in ACN as a Independent Rep so you get those under you to help with the client base and you get paid a certain commission for their customers paying for their telecommunication services.

Point blank, there is always bad talk about any company on the web, tv, newspaper etc. You have to experience it yourself. If ACN is such a scam, why are they still in business since 1993? Why are there so many successful reps making good money. I personally have friends who joined and are making 6-7 figures just within 2-5 yrs with ACN. I also have friends who joined and didn't succeed and quit because they admitted it wasn't their niche. Some people weren't born to be a seller. Some people prefer other types of Careers. So ACN isn't for everyone. But it is a legit company IMO. This isn't Star Wars using jedi mind tricks, or a magic show hypnotizing people. Not to mention Donald Trump had 13 of his personal lawyers investigate ACN which took 1 whole year until he decided to endorse the company which ACN and it's digital video phone product will be airing March 22nd for 2 hours on the Celebrity Apprentice!

[Daneel]

Originally Posted by cmaticblazn

You just have to look at it in a sense of a Real Estate Agent starting his independently owned office. he wants to sell 100 homes for example every month but know he can't handle it on his own so what does he do??? He hires 5 agents under him who pay the fee's necessary for licensing, and have them sell 15-20 homes each to reach that goal. And the manager get's a cut/commission off of what they sell.

The problem is... say this real estate agent wants to sell 100 homes/month, but as you say there is no way he could do this on his own. He hires these 5 agents in order to accomplish that, and all is well for him. But with the fees they lose there is no way they can survive on selling 20 homes/month, and the first agent never told them this. So they have to hire another 5 agents each in order to break even and also neglect to tell them what they are likely to make from it. And so on.

This is what makes it suspicious and more of a pyramid scheme than a legitimate MLM. There is hardly any way you can make money from it by simply selling the service, you have to scam others into it as well and make sure not to tell them that they are not very likely to make money from it without doing the same to others.

[cmaticblazn]

Originally Posted by Daneel

The problem is... say this real estate agent wants to sell 100 homes/month, but as you say there is no way he could do this on his own. He hires these 5 agents in order to accomplish that, and all is well for him. But with the fees they lose there is no way they can survive on selling 20 homes/month, and the first agent never told them this. So they have to hire another 5 agents each in order to break even and also neglect to tell them what they are likely to make from it. And so on.

This is what makes it suspicious and more of a pyramid scheme than a legitimate MLM. There is hardly any way you can make money from it by simply selling the service, you have to scam others into it as well and make sure not to tell them that they are not very likely to make money from it without doing the same to others.

I kinda of see where your coming from a ACN point of view, but before the real estate market dumped, I was previously a loan officer and a real estate agent. Selling 20 homes a month was more than enough to survive even with the annual renewal fee's I had to pay and the HUGE % commission my manager made off me. But that's besides the point, I see where you are coming from starting out with ACN because you only get a cut of 1/4 % for each sale which in fact ISN"T ANYTHING. Yes I agree, but that's why you work hard like any other job to acquire so much customers and build your team, have your reps acquire customers and that's what helps promote yourself and promote your reps under you to the different levels of ACN to get up to the 10% commission, plus the weekly checks for sales you made, and the CAB bonuses monthly, not to mention the annual retreats fully paid (plane, hotel, food, transportation etc.)

Basic 5, 20 customers is the key/model. From one person get's 5, that 5 get's 5=25reps with them getting 5 reps each=100reps. All 100 reps under you get an average of 20 customers each=2000 customers. Let's say their average bill is $50 a month each, that's $100k you bring in for ACN, and you get 10% of that!! = 10k a month off just residual income, not to mention the monthly bonuses and weekly checks you get from sales. It's very possible, it's already real, and a very successful business model since 1993.

[Daneel]

Originally Posted by cmaticblazn

It's very possible, it's already real, and a very successful business model since 1993.

Of course it works, at least for some, pyramid schemes wouldn't be as popular otherwise. It's those 100 reps, I'm curious whether they would make any money at all, and whether they were told that in advance. Or are you saying you just have to step on a few toes to get ahead in the world?

[poirot]

As far as ACN belonging to the "direct selling association" DSA, they likely do, as many other MLM belong to the DSA, so much so that some claim this association has become a tool of the MLM/pyramid schemers.
Source
ftc.gov - Consumer Awareness Institute - and Pyramid Scheme Alert (Taylor, Jon) (8/7/2006) #522418-13112

Considering the high drop off rate of MLM recruits and the fact that the main source of income is the fees of new recruits, Multi Level Marketing recruiters need fervor and hype in order to keep the recruitment going and a major tool they use is posting glowing reviews all over the Internet.

If your post is judged by a moderator as being nothing more than a glowing review from an MLM recruiter, you will have to find another forum to post it in. The post will be deleted and your account may be terminated.

Our main purpose is exposing scams and offering support to victims of scam. We will not become a venue for promoters and recruiters of Multi Level Marketing schemes. Period.

I suggest to anyone considering joining any MLM, that they first seek information other than that supplied by the recruiters, which is generally notoriously misleading.

There are sites such as www.mlm-thetruth.com that have a lot of details on MLMs. Beware of MLM proponent web sites seemingly exposing some MLM as scams with the purpose of promoting others.

[cmaticblazn]

Originally Posted by Daneel

Of course it works, at least for some, pyramid schemes wouldn't be as popular otherwise. It's those 100 reps, I'm curious whether they would make any money at all, and whether they were told that in advance. Or are you saying you just have to step on a few toes to get ahead in the world?

Its a no brainer. Acquiring reps in ACN duplicates and multiplies itself. That's why we focus on basic 5, 20 customers. That's all, and let your 5 under you work the same concept and it trickles down from there. It will work itself...now of course not every rep will stay the course. Some quit, some dont work at all so it takes time and effort. This business is not designed for a get rich quick scheme. It is designed to build a team once, acquire the customer once and that's what builds the residual income. You call it pyramid scheme but the proper term is MLM (multi level marketing) which is the oldest, most respected business design for network marketing and has stood the test the time most importantly.

[poirot]

There's detailed information on ACN that should be part of the research for anyone considering joining the ACN MLM/pyramid scheme. It's at the following link:

http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/.../ACN%20MLM.htm

[Daneel]

Originally Posted by cmaticblazn

That's why we focus

What do you mean by "we"? You stated previously that "I did plenty of research on ACN", so could you please specify who you are? Working with them or just researching them?

Ok, so with "basic 5, 20 customers" you mean having 5 representatives with 20 customers each? Who in turn should also get another 5 representatives each ad infinitum?

But... what you are describing IS a pyramid scheme! I do know the difference. In a legitimate MLM, it is possible to make a profit simply by selling the product. You do not even argue this as a possibility, which is probably wise because from everything I read it is not realistic. ACN discourages cold marketing, meaning you would need to find 20 people you know personally who are willing to purchase ACN services, and 5 who are willing to become representatives themselves.

Pyramid schemes are usually illegal because they are inherently an unsustainable business model, if they rely on an infinite downline of representatives, which seems to be what you are describing. They can only survive as long as they keep growing, and eventually you will run out of people. If we take your example of each rep getting 5 reps each, that will only work 14 times before you have 6 billion people (5 ^ 14 = 6,103,515,625 ) and everyone on the planet is an ACN rep.

If we look at the math... I found a nice breakdown of it here:
http://arbyte.us/blog_archive/2005/0...amid_Scam.html

If I want to earn enough to offset the annual ($149), monthly ($5.99), and administrative ($1) fees, that takes $149 + 12×$5.99 + 12×$1 = $232.88/yr. At 1% commission, my customers' total billing would have to be $23,288, or $1940.67/mo. That's 39 customers each at $50/mo. Angela only has 27! And remember, any one of them not paying their bill will wipe out my commission!

In other words, according to your own version of this scheme, each of those 5 representatives will lose money on their customers alone. And this is not counting the US$500 needed to join the scheme in the first place. Or are the figures here incorrect somehow? If so please feel free to provide correct ones, you seem to have a lot of insight into this after all.

As you describe it, it still looks like a pyramid scam. And that's not even counting all the nasty recruiting tactics as mentioned in Poirot's link for example.

[cmaticblazn]

[quote=Daneel;75548]What do you mean by "we"?

I did a few month's research before I joined ACN. I just joined about 1 week ago. So far so good, I do agree with others that the bonus structure for product sales could be way better, but I knew what I was getting into, had all my questions answered before I joined, and Im mostly in it for the residual income.

Ok, so with "basic 5, 20 customers" you mean having 5 representatives with 20 customers each? Who in turn should also get another 5 representatives each ad infinitum?

correct! But we all know it won't be perfect and doesn't work that way 100%. probably for a lot of people, not even working 50% of that. Like I stated earlier, people drop out. Some people stay as reps but barely do any work. This aint a get rich quick scheme. Hard work must be put in place! Danny Bae who is our Senior Vice President for my team here in Vegas worked his *** off for 2.5years before he could retire his parents. And being SVP in his mid 20's which is the top position took Danny 5 years, now he reaps the fruit of his labor because he makes a 6 digit figure income a MONTH...not year...MONTH! So it's a 2/5/10 year commitment to be able to be financially independent. It depends on each rep, some will get there faster than others.

But... what you are describing IS a pyramid scheme! I do know the difference. In a legitimate MLM, it is possible to make a profit simply by selling the product.

ACN is a member of DSA (Direct Selling Association), the DSEF (Direct Selling Education Foundation, and BBB Accredited Business. They recognize ACN as a Legitimate MLM business, do the research yourself. There is no where on their websites to be found when researched under ACN that my company is a pyramid scheme, scam, using mind tricks, brainwashing reps, using hypnosis on clients hahaha I heard alllllll the BS. I heard and researched all the negatives stated by people, MOST of them being ex reps. There is nothing illegal about ACN. You show me from DSA, DSEF, or BBB where they state ACN as a pyramid scheme/scam. That's all you need to hear it from. Not gossip from online forums, or lazy ex reps who didn't do work expecting to get rich through ACN and know they hate the world blaming ACN because their $499 and other fee's paid was not well invested. I know many many many of these types of people and its sad...and thats how gossip begins with these lazy *** ex reps calling it a scam.


If we look at the math... I found a nice breakdown of it here:
http://arbyte.us/blog_archive/2005/0...amid_Scam.html

I could care less what these calculations are. And if it's from an existing or previous rep from ACN, I couldnt base anything off this or even call it true because I don't know at what level this person got to. And how much sales he/she has done in dollars to know what % he/she is getting for residual. Or how many reps he has and how much sales they have done for overriding residual etc etc etc.



As you describe it, it still looks like a pyramid scam. And that's not even counting all the nasty recruiting tactics as mentioned in Poirot's link for example.

Like I stated above, thats how gossip starts, with all these people having nothing better to do but post a vid or start a chatline, forums etc to share their experience, but the point of the matter is that it is their experience! You cant say **** unless you do it yourself. If you never tried sushi and someone randomly said "hey sushi is nasty, it will give you a heart attack, they dont clean the raw fish", you are going to believe him off the bat?? Or try it yourself? Gossip is powerful, it will make people believe a lot of BS out there. And back to the $499 and all the fee's you pay...yup I paid ALL that. And as I've said in earlier posts, if you have ever been an independent rep for ANY company like myself, then you know that there are many and plenty of fee's to pay for licensing, school, annual renewals, exams, advertisement etc etc etc.

What proof do you need??? One of my best friends Chris is in the medical field now doing great. Before he got into the medicine he joined ACN 5 years ago on the same team as Danny Bae (the multi-millionaire SVP I mentioned above). Danny Bae was only 19 along with my friend Chris. They hustled and worked hard and after a few months my friend Chris decided that sales and ACN was not for him. he paid all the fee's also and was only getting residual checks of $11. 5 years later he regrets everything because Danny Bae is now a successful SVP in the company only 25 yrs old. But see at least Chris admitted he didn't like it. It wasn't for him so the company isn't for everyone. Mr. JD Perkins just started only 2/3 yrs ago, he's only 23 and he is a successful Team Coordinator. This was his first job ever and this boy is making a 5 digit income a month. I mean what other success stories do you need?

Donald Trump had 13 of his legal advisers, lawyers etc research the entire company of ACN and after 1 year he now endorses our company and will air ACN and our digital vid phone product on Celebrity Apprentice march 22, 2009. Robert Kiyosaki also endorses ACN stating we are a legit and the best Direct Selling company anyone can work for today. UFC fighters, Floyd Mayweather just joined ACN to build a business within the business because they know of the opportunity out there. Everyone can agree that someone CANNOT put in their 2 sentence about how to fly a plane if they haven't even done it themselves.

[cmaticblazn]

LoL what more needs to be said? Honestly, this was a nice little debate but I got money to make and work to do. Take care everyone.

[Larryc77]

Residual income builder or ACN pyramid scheme graph?

<Moderator: Please do not copy five pages of text from another website without even providing references. The text can be found here:
http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/.../ACN%20MLM.htm>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Put this in perspective.
You've seen the math, try it out.

[Daneel]

They use slightly different numbers, 2% commission from sales to your direct customers, and $30 as monthly customer payments. Still, the results are very similar. Obviously getting correct figures isn't so easy. I couldn't find any from ACN.

@cmaticblazn: Dismissing every critic of ACN as lazy idiots does nothing for your credibility. And as you state it it is nothing more than the "gossip" you claim they are creating.

Originally Posted by cmaticblazn

ACN is a member of DSA (Direct Selling Association), the DSEF (Direct Selling Education Foundation, and BBB Accredited Business...

Well, if you read my post carefully I didn't say "ACN is a pyramid scheme". I said that what you described with the infinitely large downline is a pyramid scheme. And what I'm wondering is if it's possible to make money from ACN unless you treat it as such. From your posts, once again, it doesn't look like it.

Originally Posted by cmaticblazn

You show me from DSA, DSEF, or BBB where they state ACN as a pyramid scheme/scam. That's all you need to hear it from.

Now that is BS if I ever heard it. If we instead go by the FTC for example, they state quite plainly that any scheme that expects you to recruit distributors for a commission is to be avoided:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/cons...est/inv12.shtm
Does any of this matter? No. Because it says very little about any individual's experience with any specific company.

There was also the Australian court case:
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.../itemId/712090
Seems the only reason they didn't get convicted was because the payments thanks to recruiting new representatives did not go directly from the new representative but through ACN. A technicality due to how the law was worded. Like I said, they use various tricks in order to not be a pyramid scheme in the legal sense. It's possible it was something similar in the US, I'll see what I can find...

Originally Posted by cmaticblazn

I could care less what these calculations are.

Ok, so as soon as the numbers come up you're suddenly at a loss for words? Lets assume he has no reps, just starting out. You already know how much he gets in dollars from the numbers. State whatever other assumptions you feel are needed. Come up with some numbers or examples.

But as little as you care about the numbers, I can't say I care much about the assurances of DSA, DESF or BBB. Madoff ran the world's largest ponzi scheme for years, despite SEC "investigations", without getting caught. Whether it is a pyramid scheme or not as defined by US law is completely irrelevant. The way you are describing it, if the only way you can realistically make money from it is by recruiting others indefinitely, then it is an unsustainable business model, and a pyramid scheme, as defined by any dictionary.

It's interesting that you still have no objection to the idea that it seems to be impossible to make money simply from selling the product. As far as I'm concerned, this does not make it a legitimate MLM. But if you're having trouble with the math I realize this may be problematic for you to figure out.

I would strongly discourage anyone from trying to join this scheme unless they are fully aware of all the fees and have done the math so that they have a good idea of what their losses/income may be. Do NOT take anything said by an ACN representative for granted.