Somehow Worried...

[Johnny58]

Hi, My nickname is Johnny58 and I won't tell who I really am, since I have been advised by this forum, when registering, not to do it.
Anyway, the scammer that has contacted me, knows very much more about me...
So, I've received a first message from a barrister named Anselem Nze from Lume-Togo, who happened to be the friend and personal lawyer of a late Rufus K. .....(my family name) who so happened to die together with all his family about 2 years ago...
He has mentioned there was left an amount of several millions of US Dollars that we could split, together, if we concluded the transaction.
Honestly, being a businessman, I have presumed from the beginning we've been talking about non-existent money, but, since only today I've found this site and the possibility to report such matters widely, I have considered it would be wiser from my side if I let myself "caught" in the game...
Practically, I needed some solid information about the person - a barrister from The High Court in Togo should be, I presume, traceable somehow...
I have guided our conversation in such a manner that I think the man believed he has convinced me - he has sent several e-mail messages, we've negociated the "fruits" of the transaction, he has even sent to me a photo with his wife and kids (I am absolutely sure the photo has nothing to do with him or his family in reality)...
Unfortunately, I had to stop my "game", since he has sent to me an application form that I was to fill and claim that I was the next of kin of the deceased person...
Since I am no kid and I don't intend to start commiting frauds at my age, of course I had to reject this, so I've told the man that I am to ask my lawyer about it...
I have forgotten to tell that he has also called me several times, and he has also given me his telephone number - I have reported all of this already to the e-mail address mentioned in this site, accompaniued by the messages, as to have the headers analyzed.

Now, fellows, I am writing my story here, since, honestly, I REALLY cannot understand how comes that so many people - not children - let themself crooked by these, as you name them, scammers!

My "client" (to be read scammer) used an Yahoo e-mail address - I've checked, and it doesn't exist!
Meanwhile, if there really was a barrister, or whatever, how comes he doesn't have a personalized address of his office?!? How can someone be so "naive" and get "caught"?

On the other hand, a logical view - if someone dies, leaving a huge amount of money, not only that he or she used to run a business, but also must have some real estate - how comes that a barrister doesn't mention anything about that?!?

It is a matter of international and local laws that if you accept to declare yourself as being the next of kin of a deceased, not only that you inherit the benefits, but also the debts of that person!!!

I've checked with your site and seen that there are quite a lot of people that have made the stupid gesture and have transfered money to these people!!!

And not by bank transfer, but by Western Union, as if they were transfering money to their relatives in need!
I sat back and asked myself: is it possible?!?
Well, reality said it has happened!

Maybe I am too old and too realistic, but certainly I doubt that if I were 20 or 30 years younger, I would have "fallen" in such a trap...

So, to all the victims of the scammers - when you get such a proposition, try and see the "big picture" with everything involved, and specially the matters not mentioned.
I give to you my example - I have immediately thought that if the person was real, the money existed, surely there should have been at least one company of that person and some real estate - houses, cottages, etc.

So, why didn't the "barrister" mention anything about them too?

Based on logical thinking, here are some answers:
1. The money and person does not exist;
2. The barrister, associated with some other persons, are just trying to "bribe" me, in order to let them "inherit" a much larger amount of money and real estate - it is easy to "give away a few millions, if you get in exchange some hundreds of millions...;
3. What if, a terrorist organization in Africa needs to have a transfer of money in Europe? They transfer the money into my account, and then, nice and easy, come to a very satisfied person that would give them their share, without having the slightest idea that those money will be used for criminal purposes...
4. After you sign an application for something that does not rightfully belong to you, and send it where directed, you can easily be blackmailed for having committed a fraud - and then they can come and ask you for real money!

I am sure I haven't exhausted all the possibilities, but, anyway, I hope that this message will be read by as many people as possible - I want to believe it's a lesson of life.

About the spammers, as a personal opinion, I pitty them, since, with their knowledge in computers and their command of written English, I believe they could try and do something legit and earn their living with dignity...

Johnny58 December 10, 2006

[ojokaz]

I AM A NIGERIAN LEGAL PRACTITIONER.OUR LAW FIRM *Personal details removed by the moderator STATE OF NIGERIA.THE FIRM IS LISTED ON *removed by moderator
I SPECIALISE IN CYBER-CRIME ,INTERNET FRAUD AND RELATED LAWS.MY EXPERIENCE OVER THE YEARS IN ASSISTING VICTIMS OF CYBER CRIMES AND INTENET FRUAD SHOWED THAT THE VICTIMS ARE IN MOST CASES TOO GULLIBLE AND ALSO HAVE/ TEND TO EXHIBIT DUBIOUS INTENTION OR ACCESSORIES OF IMAGINED CRIME.
CYBER CRIMINALS AND INTERNET FRAUDSTERS IN MOST CASES TRICKED THEM WITH PROMISES OF LODGING ILL-GOTTEN MONEY/FUND.NHERITANCE IN THEIR ACCOUNT FOR A COMMISSION/FEES.OTHERS ARE SENT GOODS TO FRAUDSTERS BASED UPON CONTRACT TO PURCHASE OR SELL AT PRICE THAT ARE OVER 100% HIGHER THAN THE ACTUAL WORTH OF THE GOODS.SIMILARLY IS THE INFO OF WINNING LOTTERY YOU DID NOT PLAY/ENTER FOR IN THE FIRST INSTANCE.
ONCE WE CAN ALL BE TRANSPARENT IN OUR TRANSACTIONS AND NOT BE GREEDY,WE CAN NEVER BE VICTIMS OF THE FRAUDSTERS.

[ThatGrrl]

With all respect, not all victims are gullible or greedy. These scams come in all sorts of shades from donation scams to love scams. Are you seriously suggesting that people who think they are donating to an orphanage are greedy?!
Do tell me more about your fantastic work in assisting victims of internet fraud? What, may I ask is the current prosecution/conviction rate in Nigeria at present? I would be most interested to find out.

[Johnny58]

Dear Lady,
I have no intention to protect the Nigerian gentleman that has posted here, since he, as a lawyer, I believe, is better than me in defending himself...
But, the general idea is that greediness and gullibility seem to be the main "qualities" that make someone become a victim - it is my own personal opinion.
I haven't written above about it, but some time ago I also have received the "wonderful news" of being a winner at some lottery.
I have replied to that message, mentioning that it could have been a mistake, but I received another message, saying there has been no mistake, and that I really was the winner.
OK, I've asked what to do next, and the "lottery department" asked me to transfer an amount of money for, honestly, I don't remember what taxes and/or fees...
My reply, I believe, was very funny - I have explained that I live in a very, very poor country, and that that amount, for me, would have meant my entire income for over a year, but, since I am not a greedy person, but only, unfortunately, very poor, I was ready to pay 10 (ten) times that amount to the clerk in the lottery system if he/she would have the kindness to help me, transfering the requested amount on my behalf...
I have never received any message again from them.
Anyway, I believe you have realized already that I have understood immediately we were talking about virtual money and nothing for real, except, edventually, the money that I would have been so stupid to transfer...

Regarding the donations, I am sure that in your country, wherever you live, there are means and possibilities to find a place to put your donations directly, edventually seeing the persons that really need that help - maybe it takes some little extra effort, but, at least, you have the certainty that you have really done a good deed...

About the Nigerian level of corruption, we must face a fact: the poorer the country, the higher the level of corruption - I personally live in a country that, although European, is considered with a high level of corruption - after over 15 years of post-communism, the difference between the rich and the poor is quite fantastic...

Don't ask a poor not to be corrupted, cause, maybe, he/she can't afford it...

Hoping that you realize I do not sympathise with corruption, crookery and cheating, I end my message here.

[Daneel]

Hmm... but scammers are usually not poor to start with, these are not starving Africans running these cons. For one, they have to afford sitting in an internet café all day spamming, which isn't cheap. You said it yourself, they have a grasp of English and some computer skills, they have been somewhat educated, and most of them could probably find honest jobs.

So why do they decide to live off other people's misery instead?

Simple, they see how much more money the other scammers have, compared to the people with honest jobs. It is greed.

Trying to accuse the victims of being greedy serves little meaningful purpose, the scammers are always worse in that respect. Just as ThatGrrl mentioned, there are many popular scams that do not require the victim to do anything illegal or be particularly greedy. And being gullible or ignorant of certain scams is not a crime, and does not mean you deserve whatever comes to you. Also, a good con artist can fool anyone with the right trick.

[Johnny58]

OK, it seems that my attitude has startled some feelings around here and I really am convinced that you, people, are trying to help.
So, I shall try to get a little practical - I am a businessman (dealing in civil and industrial architecture), so I should have nothing in common with advanced IT or matters related to the skillfulness of the scammers, spammers, or whatsoever frauders.
What I know, hearing from some people who pretend they know what they say, is that each and every computer has a certain ID that can be detected and traced.
1. Maybe, if it doesn't sound too "communist", affecting human rights, liberties, etc, each and every computer should be registered when sold.
Even if the frauders would buy second hand computers, police should be able to trace them easier...
2. On the other hand, since the internet cafe isn't a place for kids, maybe it would be wise if each and every user of a computer in such a place should be recorded into a register, sealed and checked periodically by the police.
In this way, I believe, even the police would encounter difficulties in letting themselves be bribed by the frauders...
Since, as I have read, this frauds are already expanded at an enourmous scale, we would give the politicians of the world something to do, less embarrasing than stopping the wars - they shall have something to report as "a good achievement" and the Nigerian, Togo and whoever other authorities, will be probably "happy" to show their good will...

In this action, if I may say so, could also be attracted some huge companies, probably not so happy with the fact that their software is pirated - so, we give a shot and kick two asses at a time...

I do not know if this is the place where I should have posted such propositions, so I kindly ask the administrators to post it wherever they consider it fit (including the garbage can - ha, ha, ha).

P.S. Not long ago, a worker from my country, working in Nigeria, had been kidnapped and than released against, rumours say, a large amount of money - I'm sure that these frauders have (or, at least, show) some political convictions in support to their actions (the initial claims were to kick out from Nigeria the foreign oil companies, that "abusively" exploit their natural resources) - this is why, I believe, they should be attacked politically, in order to let them be only frauders and not, edventually, heroes...

[poirot]

In response to ojokaz, blaming the victim is something usually done by scammers.

I've seen more victims of fake employment scams than I care to remember, some from Nigeria, totally ruined by these criminals, and their only mistake was believing they where dealing with a legitimate employment agency. Where was the greed?

And the manufacturers in various countries who have been supplied real looking documents as part of an export/import scam. Honest businessman who are simply trying to sell their products. Where's the greed?

And the Nigerian school some months ago who nearly got scammed by Nigerian criminals who where passing off as a Bahamian company donating computers to their school and then demanding fees for export permit etc.., The schoolchildren of this very poor institution would have been devastated for years had the principal not contacted Fraudwatchers in time and avoided ruin. Where was the greed?

And even the lotteries you mention. It's easy to say that people who have not bought a ticket should know better. People who live in remote areas where they never had any kind of lotteries therefore are unfamiliar with them and therefore really think they won, and who have just recently been connected to the Internet and are unaware of the type of criminals lurking about, would you still say they are greedy? One such victim from a central African country had lost over $5000, mostly borrowed, could not repay and was facing prison the last time he communicated with me. I suspect he's in there now.

Then there was a Institution for the Blinds in the Middle East who was being scammed with a fake charitable donation fraud.

And on it goes.

[Nyla]

1. Maybe, if it doesn't sound too "communist", affecting human rights, liberties, etc, each and every computer should be registered when sold.
Even if the frauders would buy second hand computers, police should be able to trace them easier...


There are several unfortunate weaknesses in that approach. First, scammers rarely use personally owned computers. They tend to use computers that belong in public places, such as internet cafes, where dozens of people use the same facilities each day. Second, this is not terribly practical. Who would enforce this procedure worldwide and verify the registration data? Who would keep this database and make them cooperate with authorities worldwide? How would one enforce registering secondhand computers that have been sold to new owners? And what assistance is this when there are multiple international jurisdictions involved and the local (to the scammer) police are more interested in the bribes they can receive from the profitable scammers than bringing them to justice? How does one convince every single country in the world to get on board with this idea?


2. On the other hand, since the internet cafe isn't a place for kids, maybe it would be wise if each and every user of a computer in such a place should be recorded into a register, sealed and checked periodically by the police.

Most scammers have access to fake identification, as well. They often use it to pick up their money transfers in the collection offices. What use would it be to have their "scamming name" and a false address on record, assuming the local authorities cared about combating scamming? In many places, the scammers get these fake IDs by bribing the government office that issues IDs.


In this way, I believe, even the police would encounter difficulties in letting themselves be bribed by the frauders...

If the police are already corrupt, accepting bribes, why is the practice of keeping a register going to get rid of that corruption? Who polices the police in this case? There have been reports that some upstanding, upright internet cafe owners have attempted to throw out scammers, only to find that the police arrived to hassle them on behalf of the scammers. When a police force is corrupt, I doubt such a mild and completely unenforceable measure would change that. Especially in countries where the corruption extends well beyond the police force. Government officials, high ranking ones, in some countries, have been found to be aiding, abetting, or even engaged in, fraud and scamming on a large scale.


Since, as I have read, this frauds are already expanded at an enourmous scale, we would give the politicians of the world something to do, less embarrasing than stopping the wars - they shall have something to report as "a good achievement" and the Nigerian, Togo and whoever other authorities, will be probably "happy" to show their good will...

These countries already have quite a compelling reason to clean up the scamming within their borders. They are missing out on millions, even billions, in possible investment opportunities, because they are seen as corrupt through and through. Many people refuse to deal with people from these countries, merely because of the terrible reputation a small minority have earned. There is already quite a bit of international pressure for them to improve, and the economic incentives are there.

These countries have to want to change themselves. We can't bribe them into it, and we certainly can't force them into it. That change and the desire to change has to come from within. In many countries, scammers are celebrated as folk heroes, congratulated for being clever and wealthy through theft. While the society around them glorifies scammers, there is not much chance that scamming will be wiped out.

In reality, only one thing would completely wipe out scamming and fraud. No matter what measures are taken against it, scammers will find a way around them or still risk getting caught, so long as it is profitable. If it becomes unprofitable, there would be no reason to do it.

[Johnny58]

Well, it seems I really am a "newbie" in this domain...
A few words about me - I first set my eyes on a computer screen in 1993...
Believe me, I was already an adult, with nothing to do in my background with computers.
The first time I've had access to the internet was in 1994...
So, I've learned by myself almost everything I know at this moment.
I'm sorry I am forbidden to reveal my identity, so you'll just have to believe me that I have learned enough HTML to make my company's business page by myself - and it doesn't look "unprofessional".
The idea is, that newbie in computers and an "old goat" when starting using them, I've never become a victim of the frauders.
But, I have to admit, I'm quite reluctant in giving money to persons or organisations I do not really know...
Maybe, in this way, I may have missed some opportunities, but surely I've never become a victim of the frauders.
We have here a word - probably valid worldwide - he who has the information, controls the situation...
The examples given by you and the situations described, make me think that the only way to get rid of frauders is information.
Find ways to keep the public informed, especially in the underdeveloped countries.
Maybe you can find some sponsors for TV advertisement, kind of "New on the net? Take care not to get scammed", for example...
Short spots, with a voice in the background encouraging people to disbelieve unverified lottery systems, fortunes for free, and whatsoever scams are used, would surely do some good.
Meanwhile, in spite of all you have said above, I still think that political action would also contribute, since, as we all know, each and every political person has political enemies, that surely will take advantage of the possibility to kick the *** of a high rank official involved in the protection of these frauders.
In a war - as I believe you have with the frauders - you use intelligence, aviation, tanks, troops - everything for victory.
The greatest achievement, for the moment, I believe is the economical isolation of the countries "involved" - I completely agree with the idea that the decision and commitment should come from their governments...

A fake ID is a fake ID - surely the local police can make the difference - if not - surely, with political will, the departments that issue those documents can be better watched and have these possibilities cut.



But, again, I believe information is the most devastating weapon against fraud.

[Nyla]

The examples given by you and the situations described, make me think that the only way to get rid of frauders is information.

That would be the main reason we're here. The site was formed mostly as an informational resource for scam victims and scam targets.

We do what we can as a completely volunteer-run site.

[ThatGrrl]

Johnny, I do apologise. My post was not aimed at you at all, it was aimed at ojokaz, with whose response I am "intrigued". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Johnny58]

First for ThatGrrl
Absolutely no problem, I can understand your point of view and have absolutely no remorse - no problem.

Now, for everybody
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have the pleasure and pride to inform you of the following:
Yesterday evening (Dec. 12, 2006) there has been taken a PHISHING action against all the clients of RAIFFEISEN BANK in Romania (yes, I am Romanian and I have no fear of the frauders - let them "deal" with the Romanians and you'll see they shall try to find themselves legit jobs...).

I am happy to inform everybody that some main TV and radio stations have transmitted the information as hot news.

The phishing message (sent by e-mail - so they have managed to enter the bank system up to a certain level) was asking the clients to access a site and put there their personal info about their credit cards - name, number & ID + PIN CODE...

It was, they have said, a thorough verification made by the bank...

The person in charge of the bank has been VERY QUICKLY informed by several clients about this "peculiarity" and the bank has IMMEDIATELY blocked all the accounts!!!
So, the result of the work of the frauders was "0" (ZERO!!!).

On the radio station I was listening in my limo, I've understood that in other countries there are BILLIONS of dollars made every year with this kind of actions...

So, my friends, let the frauders try it here, in Romania - it will most probably happen to them just what happened when they have tried to fraud me...

I am, honestly, glad and proud, and I've drank a lot of wine to celebrate!

So, friends, INFORMATION (as some of you have already mentioned) is the best way to F**k these persons...

ADDENDUM - the Romanian Police and Prosecutors have already started an inquiry to find and "congratulate" the phishers.
If they are located in Romania (and haven't yet departed) they will surely be in a very "disconforting" position...

Also, they have mentioned today - my wife has listened to a TV station news - that there have been some "clever guys" that have used the personal data of other people for accessing credits that, of course, have never been paid back.
Here, unfortunately, there is a problem, since, after being captured by the police, they have been released by the judging system without having to "serve" some jail time...

But, as they all say, our judges are "horrible"...

In fact, we still have a word here - a lawyer is awfully expensive - it is much safer and cheaper to go and buy a judge...

I do appologize to the administrator of this site for revealing my country, but I take the risk.

For the frauders - Please don't bother with me, I never make online payments and if there is money to go to something, be ABSOLUTELY sure I shall have first to see (and not only) the persons involved.

So, Information and Logical Thinking - these are probably the main targets - don't forget about the political support - it should be better than the lack of it.
Thanks
P.S. Please note that here, if you steel 5 chickens, you go to jail - for real - for 5 (five) years.
But, if you steel a million, even if you get prosecuted and convicted, you shall become ill enough to be unable to serve or do your time in jail...

[Sarah]

Revealing your country is nothing to worry about. ;)

[Batgirl]

I agree totally with you Johnny. I also have been playing around with some of the scammers in my emails. As soon as I mention anything about them putting up the money and I would "pay them back" when I received the funds it seems like all contact is lost with them. I can see how some older people can fall for these scams, it's an easy buck. I am quite pleased to see on the news recently here in the US that these scammers were being uncovered by hidden cameras. It was quite the sight to see these scammers get caught. I will definitely spread this website around to my friends and family, especially the most gullible ones! Ha!

Batty

[Johnny58]

So, my friends, "longing" for my scammer brought me. right now to this:
................................
"My dear brother,

How are you? I trust that all is well with you. I have just come out of a three days fasting and prayer section today only to see your mail. I have been seeking for God's guidance towards the successful conclusion of this transaction. I am more comfortable with achieving this with you because you have proven to me that you are not a greedy person as can be seen from the contents of your mails.

All I can assure you is that, there is absolutely nothing to worry about as all legal documents backing up this inheritance will be provided so there is no question of the funds been confisticated upon it's getting into your account. All I require is your co-operation so that we can handle this transaction together and have these funds released and transferred immediately.

I have tried to reach you on telephone but I have been unsuccessful. I will keep on trying so that we can speak and reach a final agreement as regards to this issue.

Remain blessed
Your brother"
..................................

So, really, I should pay this guy a dollar for each and every message like this... He's a nice person, educated, only a little bit too "gone with the wind"...
This man, people!!! He's SO STUPID, that he hasn't yet understood that I know the game he plays...!!!!!!

Are you still afraid of such "scammers"?!?
The Italians have a worl: he is a "pollo" - Translated, means a chicken...

My ONLY problem is that I don't want to get any money from him, since his intelligence is VERY LOW...

I think I should give him the story of his life, but, maybe, after he learns his lesson (and escapes without getting arrested, as you say) he may use my immagination for producing REALLY original scams...

So, what do you say? Should I "scam" him, or should I just let him try his charms on stupid geese?

[Nyla]

Johnny, if you want to waste a scammer's time by corresponding with them, you should not be doing it from a personal account that you use for anything else or that can be traced back to your real identity in any way. If you want to learn how to do this safely, it is called "baiting" or "scambaiting". There are many communities and sites dedicated to this activity, you can find them through an internet search, and many of them even have "mentoring" programs where someone more experienced will teach you how to bait safely. We do not discuss or encourage scambaiting at this site.

[Johnny58]

Nyla, you have written something that has made me take a decision: "if you want to waste a scammer's time"...
Well, I do waste his time, but, finally, as I understand, this is HIS job!
The problem appears to me, since I have to run my company, not waste some scammer's time, since this is not included in my company activity!
On the other hand, he already knows me, my address, my telephone number - I have them posted, since years, on my Yahoo profile.
So, I'll just write to the man that I am dissapointed in him, since he hasn't provided the documents requested by me, and bye...
I want to thank everyone for your support and infos.

[Johnny58]

Honestly, I didn't think I would be posting again, so soon...
So, today morning I've visited one of my banks (I mean, one of the banks where I have accounts, to be clear, and not make someone believe I am a bank owner...).
They have a very practical policy, having working hours including on Saturday morning, and they are also working with Western Union Money Transfer, just as very many banks here, in Romania.
Since the clerks there know me, I have discussed a little about the scams.
Well, GOOD NEWS!!!
In Romania, Western Union DOES NOT let people send money to certain locations, which are already BLACK LISTED.
So, even if I would have been conned by the frauder, they wouldn't have accepted my transfer request!
So, I wonder, how comes that in a so "unimportant" country as Romania this can be done, as "bank policy" and in other countries, bankers let people get "fried"???
And, believe me, statistics say that the level of corruption in Romania is quite high...
For all the fellow Romanians: "Don't worry, be happy"!!!

I don't know if this happens abroad too, but today, I've seen the clerk refusing to pay a young lady the money arrived from I don't know where, just because she hasn't been able to tell the clerk how much money she was supposed to receive - the clerk explained that they are entitled to refuse the paiment, unless the person mentions the amount, with an accepted error of maximum +/- 15%.
I've also understood there are some keywords, like the passwords when you enter an account...
About the identification, not only that the receiver of the money has to have the ID, but the clerk also makes a copy of the ID, after a very thorrough check of the original...
In my opinion, it is a lot of safety included - if someone would try to scam somebody and receive the money in Romania, I'm "afraid" he/she would have a very short time to enjoy what they have stolen - I understood that when it comes to foreigners, with passports, the clerk's "attention" regarding the person, documents presented, is at the highest...

I have been explained that all these security measures have been taken to avoid money laundry - as I've written before, let some scammers come and try something tricky here, and surely the word would go around and make these *******s search for legit work...

About the money transfers, no matter how and for what, if the amount is equal or higher than 7,000 Euros, the tranzaction will be reported to a "special anti-fraud committee", that will be monitoring the route of those amounts - this has been enforced after the terrorist attacks in The USA.

[FW Admin]

Hello Johnny58 and welcome to FraudWatchers.

Although I commend the attitude of both yourself and the working staff of Romanian Western Union offices, this unfortunately would be the exception rather than the rule.

May I draw your attention to this post:

http://www.fraudwatchers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2564

and you can read how Western Union themselves cover their tracks when it comes to payment to recipients.

I would stress that although payments may be made to a certain person in a certain location (i.e. country), any Western Union office in any country that has sight of the payment details made can make the payment to someone who a) offers ID whether fake or not, or b) collects a bribe from the recipient.

As you can see, although the WU employees in your country abide by the rules and regulations, agencies in other countries (which are usually franchises run from shops, post offices or the like) take such commandments much more liberally.

Additionally, these criminals do have accomplices in other Western countries such as The Netherlands, England, the USA, Spain and others, where they can simply request the payments to be made to a certain location - again, where the managers of the Western Union agency may be either naive or themselves implicated in these crimes.

[Johnny58]

Hello and thanks.
After reading your comments and the link, I need to state, loud and clear, that I have never used Western Union and that what I have written above reffers to an WU Office performed by the bank clerks - I have absolutely no idea what happens if I go somewhere else, but, if it goes as you have described, I believe WU should be facing criminal prosecution, since, deliberately, they facilitate the cons the means to cheat without the possibility of being traced!
What you are describing is quite outrageous, and, until proven you are wrong, I strongly advise everybody to use other means of money transfers.
Really, I am quite infuriated!
It's completely abnormal and immoral to create a flourishing business (as I believe WU is), on the misery of the clients...
These people should be taught a lesson about responsibility and they are, I believe, the first to be judged for their policy!
Legally speaking, I believe there must be some law with international applicability, mentioning that if you send the money to John Doe, than the WU MUST have the evidence that the money has been paid to John Doe, and not to someone impersonating John Doe, or, edventually representing him, in case they cannot produce the legal notarized document that John Doe has officially delegated that person to withdraw the money.
If the victims around the world - no matter how naive, gullible or greedy, would come together and open a court trial against WU at it's main headquarters, than, probably WU, even if not asked, finally, to pay back the money, would surely revise their policy around the world.
I also believe that there will be possible to find some lawyers, to do the work for free, in case of not winning the case, at least for the notoriety of such a case, that would unite people from all around the globe.
You might also obtain the support of the authorities of various countries, since, I believe, no government around the world could be happy regarding the money laundry activity...
After reading about your experience and reluctancy of WU, I cannot avoid thinking that they are quite aware of the fact that they are baring the burden of guilt, and avoiding direct answers and redirecting the people asking questions, is just an intelligent manner of postponing someone "crazy" like me, for example, who would ask them to pay for their "mistakes"...
On the other hand, since a trial is expensive and takes a lot of time and efforts, I believe it is quite unlikely for a person, who has already been robbed of his/her money, having financial problems, to take them in court - this is why, again, I insist the victims should unite and go in this as a team.
Anyway, since I am no victim and no lawyer, I don't know how I can be of any further help, but, I am positively sure that there are enough lawyers willing to help these victims.

[Nyla]

I believe WU should be facing criminal prosecution, since, deliberately, they facilitate the cons the means to cheat without the possibility of being traced!

Western Union, for all its known flaws, does not overtly market itself as a service for scammer use. Scammers do know how to exploit the weaknesses of the system quite well. For that matter, they also exploit quite a few weaknesses in the banking system and profit from them. Fake check scams are an excellent example of this. They exploit loopholes in check clearance versus availability of funds.

WU does make it fairly plain to users that they are sending, for all intents and purposes, cash. Most of us would not hand over cash to a stranger. Even the slogan says it's the fastest way to send cash. The service was largely designed to cater to people who are traveling, away from home, who have emergencies and need to receive funds.

If this emergency happens to be a lost/stolen wallet and identification, then asking for ID would be rather useless, so alternate measures to prove that you are the intended recipient are necessary. These days, a large segment of its customers are also immigrants, working abroad, who need a quick and affordable way to send some portion of their wages to family back home. Scammers are probably not the majority of their user base, even though it may seem that way at times.

Western Union does at least make an effort to discourage people from using their service to send money to strangers. The forms a sender must fill out in order to send a transfer do bear some warnings about scams. And WU does seem to comply with all regulations and laws in the countries where it operates. Some countries are more restrictive than others.

I will point out that many scammers (primarily fake exporters claiming to be in China) also receive payments through direct bank transfers, a payment method most of us would consider quite safe and protected.


What you are describing is quite outrageous, and, until proven you are wrong, I strongly advise everybody to use other means of money transfers.

Moneygram, a similar service, has many of the same flaws when it comes to being exploited by scammers. WU is definitely not alone in being exploited by scammers as an easy way to part victims from cash with little risk.


It's completely abnormal and immoral to create a flourishing business (as I believe WU is), on the misery of the clients...
These people should be taught a lesson about responsibility and they are, I believe, the first to be judged for their policy!

This is merely my own personal opinion, here, but Western Union provides a single service. They take your cash and agree to pay the amount you specify to someone else if they can provide some basic information about the transfer, which more or less proves they are the intended recipient. They do not claim to offer any consumer protection, or to verify the identity of the person who receives it independently. That's the sender's job, and the sender is the one who hands over the transfer information to the intended recipient. Western Union acts only as a "cash drawer" of sorts. They really have no more responsibility for who is receiving my money than a parcel delivery company would if I shipped cash to a stranger in a package. They would merely deliver the parcel to the address I indicated. They might get a signature, but I doubt they would check an ID or otherwise confirm the identity of the recipient in any way.

I do wish WU would be much more explicit about how little they check and would not give contradictory information when asked about their restrictions, but I admit they aren't alone in this. Just this past week, I was given two entirely different answers to the same question by a web merchant's customer service.


Legally speaking, I believe there must be some law with international applicability, mentioning that if you send the money to John Doe, than the WU MUST have the evidence that the money has been paid to John Doe, and not to someone impersonating John Doe, or, edventually representing him, in case they cannot produce the legal notarized document that John Doe has officially delegated that person to withdraw the money.

The assumption is that if the collector has knowledge of sufficient information to collect the transfer, then obviously the sender or the intended recipient shared that information with them and they are authorized to pick up the payment. Being able to proved the money transfer control number and the amount of the transfer is considered to be providing proper identification as the intended recipient. See the earlier scenario about a traveler whose identification has been stolen.

The only legal restrictions on Western Union and similar services that I'm aware of cover money laundering prevention. When transfers exceed a certain amount or frequency, they are required to report this information to authorities.


If the victims around the world - no matter how naive, gullible or greedy, would come together and open a court trial against WU at it's main headquarters, than, probably WU, even if not asked, finally, to pay back the money, would surely revise their policy around the world.

It would be wonderful if they voluntarily stepped up their fraud prevention efforts, especially in regards to educating people about the risks they are taking, but as I understand it, they have no legal obligation to do so, and I doubt a class action suit would really be successful in accomplishing anything other than making some lawyers a nice profit. The legal disclaimers that senders are required to sign before sending money likely cover any liability issues. It's also admittedly difficult to come up with effective fraud prevention measures that don't place an undue burden on some legitimate recipients. While it's tempting to throw out the baby with the bathwater in an effort to shut down scammers, there's also nothing to be gained from crippling WU's services or their legitimate customers, either.

[Johnny58]

<admin deleted -

this is not a debating forum, nor is it a place where one's personal arguments about the ways of commerce and democracy are forced upon others.

We have all tried to explain to you the FACTS - you are arguing against those facts with your own opinions formulated from your own self-confessed naivety.

You have insulted the volunteer support group members here by suggesting they do not know what they are talking about. You have insulted me, the administrator, by stating that we should call the people who come to this site, not "victims", but "criminals with less experience of those who are dedicated to this for life".

You are quite right when you say you may have made a mistake by becoming a member here. I am sure there are some homophobic sites where your arrogance and self-opinionated views may be welcomed.

On this site, they, and you, are not. Your access has been removed.

FW Admin - FraudWatchers administrator.>

[Aeval]

And for those who still have access to Fraudwatchers (unlike Johnny58, whose ugly rant happened to interrupt my morning coffee) and who can read this thread:

People like Johnny58 are the bane of message boards of pretty much any kind. They have a lot of attitude - which, when coupled with very little information on a given topic, and complete lack of ability to learn tends to turn them into a persona non grata at a speed that would amaze a Forumula 1 driver.

We welcome our members' input, and we are willing to learn. What we do not welcome here are chunks of misinformation, delivered in a very rude manner and coupled with offensive behavior towards our volunteer staff. We also do not appreciate random trashing of victims of scams, and condescending rants about one's own superiority.

Johnny58 has overstayed his welcome here. I hope that he likes his new colors. Red suits him.